(Treebeard goes over simple forest management where trees are grown in a plantation method to ensure a renewable source of building materials. He defines how without any human interference, forests would be managed by devas who work with fire devas when needed to keep a forest in check. In what has to be a first, our guest Skip gives Treebeard a lesson in planting and erosion to prevent another Dustbowl era.) 

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Treebeard: greetings.

Russ: greetings Treebeard.

Treebeard: greetings Skip……

Skip: greetings.

Treebeard: greetings Russ.

Russ: welcome.

Skip: how are you doing today?

Treebeard: I am doing of well and you?

Skip: fine but getting better.

Treebeard: I see humor in wording.

Russ: uh-huh.

Treebeard: okay now, as we are filling and backpedaling, let me instead of giving long explanations, let me be of available toing of answering.

Russ: excellent. I have a real good question, forest management.

Treebeard: yes?

Russ: the ability to monitor the use of renewable resources like trees and using them but not overusing them. How do you establish a balance in a forest of what you use compared to what won’t kill off the forest?

Treebeard: there is very easy of way, you farm of trees. Remembering that it takes of great time for trees to go from little sapling to big.

Russ: right.

Treebeard: what you can do is take area that is clear of trees and area next to it being of lots of trees, you estimate how much area will be needed for trees. You plant twice area.......size of area for saplings which are of fast-growing trees and you wait a while making price of timber going up, then you start to of cut area slowly for lumber, as you are cutting, trees aren't growing. A five year after planting first area you plant second area.

Russ: hmm.

Treebeard: after another five years being 10 years you cut……you are about halfway through cutting area you have of selecting, you plant area that you have cleared with little saplings so you now being of having three areas. Then as area being finished of cutting, you plant that area with new of saplings so you now have four areas. Time elapsed so far 20 years thereabouts of your time. First area being just of ready to start harvesting but best to wait another 10 years so they are of 30 years. So having of reached 30 years, then you have area now where you have of five groups of trees all at different phases and you keep repeating project in a cycle. So you have area of great size with trees that you are cutting down and planting continually.

Russ: hmm, now don’t the roots and the stumps get in the way of your planting effort or do you have to pull them out?

Treebeard: as they break down, what do they be of giving?

Skip: compost.

Russ: nutrients.

Treebeard: exactly.

Russ: I see.

Treebeard: so new feeding off of old which is as it has always been with physical beings.

Skip: in other words, you’re talking about using a 10 year cycle.

Treebeard: much bigger than 10 years.

Skip: I mean for each planting.

Treebeard: each plantation.

Skip: yeah a 10 year cycle. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years.

Treebeard: that being correct, 60 is ideal number for trees to be of big size that would being of suitable for building of big houses and long trees for tall rafters.

Skip: because right now we have a cycle right here in South Lake of a 100 years on our trees.

Treebeard: a 100 would being perfect but depending on speed of growing of trees.

Skip: you see because at the turn-of-the-century they clear cut this country and then replanted it so there’s no trees over 100 years old here.

Treebeard: there are few groves where there are memory trees.

Skip: yeah but from here clear to Carson City it was clear cut.

Treebeard: which is very sad but area this big it would being of ideal for project of a 60 year cycle.

Russ: on Lake Tahoe? Well there 70 miles of lake shore.

Skip: yeah and they clear cut it.

Russ: in how long a time?

Skip: probably in 15 years.

Russ: wow.

Skip: because there was not a tree left up here at the turn-of-the-century.

Russ: that’s not good forest management.

Skip: no but see in them days they didn’t manage forests, they just clear cut.

Treebeard: well there is being more to forest management then just planting trees, you have to be of planting right trees if you are using plantation style methods. If you are of just replacing trees to restore to natural, you do not plant trees that I am seeing pictured in your minds. Those are wrong trees for this region you are being of living in. Those trees are being of non-drought resistant, nonresistant to indigenous insect life which will being of causing problems and also picture you are generating suggests that of trees not being far enough apart, too close together, that is part of the forest management.

Russ: hmm.

Treebeard: also what is part of forest management is natural for growth and being of forest and of managers of forest not being human but of being deva working hand-in-hand next to forest deva is devas of fire. Fire is part of natural process but if not allowed to work, then fire devas lose control and skill of using fire for keeping forests healthy.

Russ: hmm.

Treebeard: with needle forests, it becoming of problem that acid increase in soil as needles being of dissolving to ground.

Russ: uh-huh.

Treebeard: okay next of question for audio.

Skip: well then the Indians had the right idea, I’m speaking of North American Indians, they burnt their forest probably every 10 years.

Treebeard: elaborate please.

Skip: either through…..before……okay before the invasion of the European people into the North American continent we had North American Indians and their philosophy was to set fires in the forests either by natural causes which are lightning or by their own hand every 10 years to burn off the underbrush and let the tall trees grow and clean the forest.

Treebeard: ahh, you are being of correct, that is part of natural process and good management of forest. I am interested in terminology you use, invasion? We will discuss that at another time as I am being of fascinated by what you are visualizing.

Skip: okay, okay at a different time then.

Treebeard: but you are being quite correct in using that as example, that is healthy forest management.

Skip: uh-huh, about every 10 years. What was I was saying? Immigration of people from all over the world to this country, that has been ceased.

Treebeard: yes, I see it as potential for great problem, great catastrophe.

Skip: uh-huh, I believe that’s why we’re having such hellacious forest fires that we're having now.

Treebeard: do not believe no, that is very correct assumption.

Russ: we’ve been having some real bad ones lately.

Skip: and they’re getting worse, they’re getting worse, they ain’t getting any better.

Treebeard: indigenous people that live in forests or near forests know how to of being managing. If you do not use fire as devas try to do so, then you are taking away natural control and fuel for wildland fires increases so no longer being just scorching of barn, it being coming of a holocaust, that is correct word to of using?

Russ: uh-huh.

Skip: yes it is, yes it is.

Treebeard: okay.

Skip: prime example is Yellowstone, what was that, five years ago it burned?

Russ: eight years ago.

Skip: eight years ago? Now everything’s all new, it’s just beautiful there now.

Treebeard: but that is again example of being so. But I think part of problem is of fact that people are now dwelling within those areas where once it was not a problem of being big fires?

Russ: uh-huh.

Treebeard: they were unseen and unheard of but now people of living within those areas see and being of alarmed and concerned of their property.

Russ: yeah, the Indians were nomadic, if they set the fire they just move on until the fire went away and they could move back in.

Skip: well true.

Russ: and nowadays, yeah you get set up in a place…..

Skip: well you got too many people.

Russ: yeah.

Skip: that’s the problem, we’re getting overpopulated.

Treebeard: yes, I am thinking of so.

Skip: and more and more people are moving into the mountains to get away from the cities so consequently they're overpopulating the mountains where all the forests and all of our resources are.

Treebeard: okay let us of vocalize next question.

Skip: you?

Russ: go ahead.

Skip: I have none.

Russ: oh, let’s see. That’s a good management plan for that, the other question I have is concerning......is also with forest management, the ability to use proper farming techniques for agriculture in let’s say an area you’ve already clear cut of timber and now you want to put agriculture in there. So you’re not going to grow trees again but are you going to be taking away from the health of the forest around you?

Treebeard: if it is isolated I do not see problem but if you keep on expanding area and increasing of size, then you are harming the forest’s natural balance. But if you keep it isolated and small as initially set up then it is not being of problem, they are being like meadows.

Russ: oh right. Well many times in our history we have.....and present.....we have many areas that are taking the forest, cutting them down to put in agriculture and basically destroying forests and it’s finding that balance. The forest can’t tell you what its balance point is…..

Treebeard: true but if you listen and look you can observe what is root cause of problem.

Russ: hmm, well the overagriculturing or overgrazing.

Treebeard: no there is root problem of why you would need to cut down trees for more agriculture.

Skip: more people.

Treebeard: exactly.

Skip: overpopulation.

Treebeard: so what is answer?

Skip: kill off half the people. (starts laughing) No I’m just teasing Treebeard, I’m just teasing.

Treebeard: I do see humor in your mind in that but with what is going on I think it would be not a idea of good to make comments even in jest.

Skip: right, no the solution to this would be a more efficient agricultural.

Treebeard: or learning abstinence.

Skip: yeah.......

Treebeard: not abstinence but taking precautions. Instead of two people having three or more of children, just having one.

Skip: this is true too but it’s still going to explode your population.

Treebeard: true.

Skip: go ahead I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you.

Treebeard: but I was just trying to advise you that we are being listened to by Kiri and Tia.

Skip: I was just teasing about eliminating half the population.

Treebeard: I am understanding but I am thinking of Tia with her workload.

Skip: I know, I know, I just…..sense of humor. I’m a little bit twisted but it’s a sense of humor.

Treebeard: oh I am of understanding, I am not admonishing you or anything, I am just concerned that we do not want third blind (?).

Skip: yeah I know, I know. But no if they would.....I believe in my own mind if.....and they’re trying to......agriculture would be more efficient with what they’ve got rather than trying to just expand land to grow more food. Be more resourceful in growing two or three foods on the land that they’ve got.

Treebeard: oh most certainly, it is easy to be more efficient, increasing arable area is just temporary remedy to increase in peoples. If you learn how to make area produce much more and more efficiently, you can therefore as you say two or three products in one year means that it is more advantageous than just one. Three being perfect set up for doing so.

Skip: I see this happening all over though, where people are getting more efficient with their property. Even the cattle people are starting to grow alfalfa in their pastures that they can harvest while they're still grazing cattle in them. So there you’ve got two products coming from one piece of land.

Treebeard: correct.

Russ: well a lot of technology is now with agriculture have been focusing on more higher yields with less space used. For example, hydroponics, greenhouses, other various means that allow you to control environments that you’re growing in so you don’t have to use up necessary soil or…..

Skip: more and more and more land yeah.

Russ: yeah, growing in areas where you can’t grow. Taking a desert, putting in a greenhouse or a very large set of greenhouses even and you can grow as much in there as you could on arable land.

Skip: yeah. See at one time there was three states covered by wheat country.

Treebeard: now I should seeing that it is of probably less.

Skip: see North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana were all covered with wheat country, Eastern Montana.

Russ: oh really?

Skip: that was all dry land wheat country at one time, it’s almost all gone.

Russ: wow.

Skip: because it’s so arid. Now they're growing other things there.

Treebeard: but Skip is of answering your next question.

Russ: hmm......

Treebeard: okay…..

Russ: what to do with the land?

Treebeard: yes.

Russ: right.

Treebeard: Skip started to answer question.

Skip: I’m sorry.

Treebeard: you started to answer, please finish. You were talking about dry farm, dry wheat and now farming other things?

Skip: uh-huh, yeah.

Treebeard: continue.

Skip: well, this is happening all over though. It’s just Oklahoma, Texas and right down through the mid-country was a dust bowl in what? In ‘29, ‘30, ‘31, ‘32, the people all migrated to California because it was good growing country. It still is good growing country but the population’s increasing so fast, they're the wiping out the growing country.

Russ: hmm, well what are they growing in those places now where it used to be arid?

Skip: now it’s going back to being agricultural country again. Of course Texas and Oklahoma is all oil wells but they still…..they’re putting cattle and sheep back on the land which they had pulled off. I would say in the last 20 years that area’s gone back to what it was before the dust bowl ages. People done the dust bowl, it was man’s thing that done the dust bowl. He plowed up everything so consequently when the winds came it blew away all the good soil. Am I correct Treebeard?

Treebeard: you are being of correct I am assuming, I am not familiar with that period in your history.

Russ: all I remember from that is from my history books.

Skip: okay what I understand is European farmers came here and they done the same kind of soil preparation that they done in Europe which is to plow, disk and level and plant. Not rotate or not.....what do they call it? Cutting crossways the hills and not plow everything, they plowed everything. And when you turn the soil continuously and make a flat land out of it, when the wind comes it blows away all your nutrients and all your good soil because you plowed the good soil up.

Russ: so what are they doing now, they put up wind breaks?

Skip: oh there’s wind breaks, they rotate crops, rotate planting, space planting so that the wind can't blow away everything and turn it into an arid land again.

Russ: hmm.

Skip: but this was through a hard way of learning.

Treebeard: unfortunately so….

Russ: still that's good information for other people.

Skip: oh sure, sure.

Russ: especially things like say the project we’re working on…..

Skip: yeah.

Russ: that’s good information now for agricultural planning in an area where you’re going to be putting a dense amount of people.

Skip: yeah because you don’t want to level everything, you do and you lose it.

Russ: ohhh, excellent.

Skip: because if you level everything and plow up all your soil holding properties like your trees and your shrubs, if you plow up everything and clear your land completely, the wind will blow away everything you got.

Russ: hmm, interesting.

Skip: the wind is unforgiving.

Treebeard: you have moved away from my field of expertise.

Skip: I’m sorry.

Treebeard: I am now of learning so I am being of big eared to catch all that is of saying.

Skip: I’m sorry.

Russ: well no actually that’s very fascinating. It's just that for example you plow let’s say one way in one field?

Skip: yeah.

Russ: and the field next to it you plow perpendicular to it?

Skip: yes, yes and don’t drag it the same way, don’t drag the two fields the same way. What I mean by drag, let me see if I can remember everything. When you drag a field you level it, completely level it. You use a drag which pulls away the roots and the fine bits and pieces that…..plants and so on and so forth. You drag your field crossways to the wind and you lose it all.

Russ: oh.

Skip: you drag it the way the wind blows, you don’t lose everything because it goes down into the little grooves in the field.

Russ: I get it, I get it.

Skip: okay? If you drag it crossways, everything blows off. You plow approximately 15 furrows at one side of the field, you leave a space of five furrows wide then plow 15 more furrows, leave another space five furrows wide so that you still got the natural plants of the ground in them five furrows. You’re planting where you plowed 15 furrows in each area. The wind comes along or the water comes along, it doesn’t erode your whole field because you’ve got them five furrows every so often that haven’t been plowed, they’re still natural.

Russ: hmm.

Treebeard: what is furrow?

Skip: a furrow is where you stick a plow in the ground and you pull it through the ground and it turns over everything about 8 to 10 inches deep, it’s called a furrow.

Treebeard: okay I am of listening.

Skip: a furrow is when you turn the ground over and you get the fresh ground on top and all the natural plants and everything else go underneath that furrow and become compost and nutrients for your plants okay?

Treebeard: okay.

Skip: if you leave an area of five furrows wide and then plow 15 more furrows……..in other words you’re spacing your field so that the natural strip every so often is in your field. I know it’s difficult to do because European people have never farmed that way, they plow the whole field……level the whole field and plant.

Treebeard: I am thinking of different soils that they are being of used to.

Skip: no, no Treebeard, European soil and what they call the Midwest in North America is almost the same soil okay?

Treebeard: ahh, different landscape.

Skip: just different landscape correct, the rolling hills, the woods, everything else, the low mountains which is through Pennsylvania and so on and so forth, it’s almost the same as Europe. So you have the same people that’s been farming for centuries in Europe come to this country where they find the same kind of soil and they want to farm the same ways that they did in Europe.

Treebeard: so they are farming what they of knowing how to do but being wrong because not understanding…….

Skip: correct.

Treebeard: the local environment.

Skip: correct because we have warm winds…..

Treebeard: ahh.

Skip: harder rains, harder winters and it erodes the soil quicker than it does in Europe because you got more wind breaks and the farms are smaller.

Treebeard: ahh, I am of understanding a little bit of better now.

Russ: oh I got it, like in England where they’ve got lots wind breaks all over the place…..

Skip: right.

Russ: I mean you got everywhere you look you got….

Skip: same thing in Europe, you got hedgerows all over the place and the farms aren't that big. In this country they became thousand acre farms which they didn’t have in Europe......

Russ: hmmm, I see.

Skip: and they’re leveling the land you don’t have the wind breaks so you’re losing your topsoil.

Russ: interesting.

Skip: I’m sorry Treebeard, I didn’t get off on….

Treebeard: no, no, I am being of fascinating, I am learning of much as you speak, you visualize and sub vocalize, I am picking up on those as well as what is being spoken. I am learning much.

Russ: what about irrigation for something that way that they’re doing now that they didn’t do back then?

Skip: you’re creating more richer soil and turning arid areas into fertile areas with irrigation which wasn’t done back in the pre-dustbowl days. There’s a lot of irrigation projects going on now that have been in place for what? 40, 50 years......

Russ: yeah.

Skip: that hone the arid soil back to where you could farm it and grow good crops and you don’t lose the topsoil because you’re flooding the area and you’re not losing the topsoil from the wind even though you don’t have the wind breaks. In other words they’re doing a lot of management in the last 50 years that wasn’t done before okay? They’re learning, they’re learning, they’re learning the hard way but everybody’s learning……

Treebeard: okay quick comment for naming of tape, land management.

Skip: okay.

Russ: good call, excellent.

Skip: yeah good call Treebeard.

Russ: okay well that’s about all I can cover on that.

Skip: okay let me get off the soapbox, I didn’t mean to get on…

Russ: no it was quite educational.

Treebeard: I am learning of much and being at my age it is something I am very glad of and I thank you from heart of bottom.

Skip: thank you sir, I appreciate it.

Treebeard: no it is thank you. Okay, I must of departing.

Russ: very well Treebeard, enjoy, that was very educational.

Skip: yeah.

Russ: I didn’t know any of that stuff.

Skip: yeah land management’s been a real bitch for me all my life because I see what’s happening.